• Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Topic: Difference between the MU and the elf.

I think I might be missing something, but other than the experience point progression being better, why would I want to play a Magic User instead of an elf?

For that slight difference in XP progression (33% higher),

An elf gets:
Better Combat Options
Better Search
Better Saving throws
Better Surprise
Better Hit Points
Same spell progression

I think I'd rather have a 3rdlevel elf than a 4th level MU.
Or, at the same level, 3 elves are better than 4 MUs.

Again, I figure I'm probably missing something, but I just can't figure out what it is.

  • Registered: 2011-06-04
  • Posts: 44

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

That XP progression differential really starts to add up by level 10 or so; 144,000 and it gets worse from there.

Plus you smell like flowers.

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

I do not!

Oh, you mean elves.

  • JimLotFP
  • Lord of All Fevers and Plagues
  • Offline
  • From: Helsinki, Finland
  • Registered: 2009-10-07
  • Posts: 613

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

I'd say the XP matters much earlier, depending on how stingy you are with XP. If it takes a year + to get past third, fourth level then the extra needed XP makes a lot of difference, especially when waiting to hit the levels that give you access to a new series of spells...

JimLotFP's Website

  • Registered: 2011-04-13
  • Posts: 36

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Some players just don't want  to play an elf and have a good idea for a Magic-user character. Sometimes that is just simple as that : if your players' mindset is to choose "the better class" then maybe LotFP is not meant for them.

Last edited by Kobayashi (2011-08-04 00:49:36)

Les Livres de l'Ours, my rpg blog
  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Kobayashi wrote:

Some players just don't want  to play an elf and have a good idea for a Magic-user character. Sometimes that is just simple as that : if your players' mindset is to choose "the better class" then maybe LotFP is not meant for them.

It's funny, I was really thinking about this both with respect to characters but also to a large degree retainers.
Hey man, if I'm hiring, I don't give a damn about how society perceives them. I want them to do their job. An elf will do that better than an MU every time.

  • Registered: 2011-04-13
  • Posts: 36

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Lord Inar wrote:

It's funny, I was really thinking about this both with respect to characters but also to a large degree retainers.
Hey man, if I'm hiring, I don't give a damn about how society perceives them. I want them to do their job. An elf will do that better than an MU every time.

Then it's the way the campaign world is described I guess. In my games players will never find an elf who will accept to be a retainer ^^

What I meant is that if a player wants efficiency, he'll play an Elf and if he think a Magic user is cool no matter what, he'll play one.

But hey, it's a just a matter of perception after all : the lack of balance just doesn't bother me that much.

Les Livres de l'Ours, my rpg blog
  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

I guess I don't really care about balance too much (Hell, I most want to play a dwarf), but it just seems that when one class completely subsumes another and then does something else to boot, that is more of an issue than just balance. Base on what everyone was saying, though I did go back and re-read the elf description, and I didn't see anything that indicated that they would be shunned by society or unwilling to be retainers ("resigned to their fate" doesn't make them seem overly proud to me), but again, that is all world-specific.

I think I did figure out my house rule for Magic Users that will help differentiate them. MUs can memorize one more spell than they have slots at each level; that way they can choose a greater variety of spells for the day, even though they can't cast any more spells than normal. This represents their greater flexibility of training without giving them more direct power.

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-08-05 07:10:31)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Ed Dove wrote:

Nicely done!
...
And it also, perhaps, hints at why "elfin civilization has fallen before the expansive nature of Man": Elves are less adaptable than humans.

Thank you!  I like your rationale for the elves as well.

  • Registered: 2011-08-11
  • Posts: 2

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Another point against elves that hasn't been mentioned (not even by the guy who wrote the rulebook! Shame Raggi! wink ) is that elves are supernatural creatures, which means all those clerical effects that target those things will hit the pointy-eared ones, including getting burned by holy water or hedged out of the clerics' Protection from Evil(, 10' Radius).

  • JimLotFP
  • Lord of All Fevers and Plagues
  • Offline
  • From: Helsinki, Finland
  • Registered: 2009-10-07
  • Posts: 613

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Archeopteryx wrote:

(not even by the guy who wrote the rulebook! Shame Raggi! wink )

I like those powergaming elf-lovers to be surprised.

Oh, interesting (maybe) trivia... the elf artwork is supposed to act somewhat as a balancing mechanism as well. While I do think the elf's disadvantages matter over the course of a campaign, in a one-shot one can really argue that an elf romps all over a MU. I figured if I had a frufru looking elf for the class picture, some powergamers would avoid it because it doesn't look cool and badass enough.

JimLotFP's Website

  • Registered: 2011-08-09
  • Posts: 3

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

JimLotFP wrote:

I figured if I had a frufru looking elf for the class picture, some powergamers would avoid it because it doesn't look cool and badass enough.

Pure. Genius.

RPG Digest
  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

JimLotFP wrote:

Oh, interesting (maybe) trivia... the elf artwork is supposed to act somewhat as a balancing mechanism as well. While I do think the elf's disadvantages matter over the course of a campaign, in a one-shot one can really argue that an elf romps all over a MU. I figured if I had a frufru looking elf for the class picture, some powergamers would avoid it because it doesn't look cool and badass enough.

Unless of course they're using the free art-free edition. If there's two pieces of art that should be kept in the free version, it's the dwarf and the elf (to make the dwarf more viable and the elf less so)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

Sorry, I must be a deconstructionist at heart!

Here's what I've found in the spells on the difference between MUs and Elves

Holy Water: MUs are better

Bless: MUs are better
Charm Person (& Mass): Elves are better
Dispel Magic: MUs are better
Hold person: Elves are better
Prot from Evil (& 10' radius): MUs are better
Sleep: Elves are better
Anti-magic shell: MUs are better (maybe?)

  • Registered: 2010-08-28
  • Posts: 86

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

How bad would it be to do something like cap out the elf's at spell level 5?  Or maybe have them progress in spell level at half the rate (so a level 6 elf has a spell level equivalent to a level 3 magic user)?  Or if that's too tough, have an elf have a spell level equal to their level minus one?  Any other options?

  • From: Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
  • Registered: 2011-08-09
  • Posts: 79

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

I think this issue could be solved by giving the elf the cleric spell progression from the deluxe edition. It slows their ability to cast the higher level spells and caps them at 7th level spells while still keeping them effective as spell casters. It's also believable for a race on the decline to lose the drive to achieve great things. It shows a real difference between the boundless ambition of man (the young race) verses the boredom of the elf (the dying race).

If you want to play a spell caster and have 3rd level spells at fifth level you'll play a wizard. If you want to play an elf or some kind of all-around useful character and you don't mind waiting until seventh level to cast 3rd level spells you'll still play an elf.

  • Registered: 2011-06-04
  • Posts: 44

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

The protection from evil, etc spells also affect magic-users.

Evil is equated with chaotic for alignment for spell purposes.  Both elves and m/u are Chaotic since they are casters.

And a DM could interpret this to mean holy water hurts m/u as well as the rules are sort of vague about innately magical beings.


Bless - Does not help in casting or resisting damage from spells  - " No rolls relating to damage or anything concerning magic may be modified by Bless"

Dispel Magic - Not sure how you figure m/u are better unless it's a pure level faster thing with this one. "All rules concerning Magic-Users also apply to Elves unless specifically noted" pg 79

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

The Degenerate Elite wrote:

Dispel Magic - Not sure how you figure m/u are better unless it's a pure level faster thing with this one. "All rules concerning Magic-Users also apply to Elves unless specifically noted" pg 79

In the second paragraph, it makes it pretty clear:
"Monsters with magical ability or able to create magical effects (including Elves but not MagicUsers) lose the ability to use these powers for 2d6 turns if they are within the area of effect and fail a saving throw"

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

The Degenerate Elite wrote:

Bless - Does not help in casting or resisting damage from spells  - " No rolls relating to damage or anything concerning magic may be modified by Bless"

It's even worse for elves:
"Elves and other intrinsically magical creatures may not benefit from Bless."

  • Registered: 2011-06-04
  • Posts: 44

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

The Dispel applies to monsters and npcs that are classed.  The only application to players would be dispelling some sort of magical curses or effects from some magical critters against the pc.

And the M/U version of Dispell Magic makes no such prohibitions anyway, only the cleric version.  So the elf just has to cast his own or have another M/U cast it on him.  So an evil cleric could be problematic to elves, but an evil M/U is problematic to both classes.


And depending on your DM a M/U could be considered an "intrinsically magical creature", depending upon how magic works in their games; Especially since M/U are chaotic, damned, and shunned in base LotFP.

Last edited by The Degenerate Elite (2011-08-26 02:51:10)

  • Registered: 2011-06-29
  • Posts: 194

Re: Difference between the MU and the elf.

The Degenerate Elite wrote:

The Dispel applies to monsters and npcs that are classed.  The only application to players would be dispelling some sort of magical curses or effects from some magical critters against the pc.

And the M/U version of Dispell Magic makes no such prohibitions anyway, only the cleric version.  So the elf just has to cast his own or have another M/U cast it on him.  So an evil cleric could be problematic to elves, but an evil M/U is problematic to both classes.

And depending on your DM a M/U could be considered an "intrinsically magical creature", depending upon how magic works in their games; Especially since M/U are chaotic, damned, and shunned in base LotFP.

I think all my comments above refer to their effect on elves, not the effect of elves using the spell, so it all still applies. An evil cleric could (and probably would) certainly cast Dispel Magic on potentially attacking elves, including the PCs. I know I'd do it!

As to MUs being "intrinsically magical", I guess that's a DM's call, but there are a few places that seem to suggest that MUs USE magic but are not necessarily OF magic. I could go either way.

Last edited by Lord Inar (2011-08-26 03:07:30)