Topic: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

We switched from Moldvay/LL to WFRP back in September, so we have a few months of drive-time with the system (this isn't armchair quarterbacking).  There have been a few areas where the player's have grumbled about some of the changes.

The group's cleric just hit level 3, proudly announced that now he would get his first level 2 spell, and when I directed him to review the modified cleric spell progression, he cried shenanigans.  (If you've never matched them head to head, you may be surprised - the WFRP progression is a bit attenuated).

The other complainants tends to be our dwarf and elf players, who look at the fighter's to-hit advantage and rend their shirts in envy.  (Those who play the fighters are smugly satisfied with the status quo).

I'm not unhappy with the cleric's state, but am considering giving the dwarf and elf a +2 attack bonus instead of the standard +1 - it would make a dwarf (fighter) at least marginally better at attacking than a magic user.

Looking for insight from other folks using the rules.

Last edited by Beedo (2011-01-18 20:10:29)

Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

Just a few thoughts off the top[ of my head:

If you give the dwarf and elf modified to-hit bonuses, why not give them for ONLY melee and ranged (respectively) attacks and not the other.  This would put the elf more in the Legolas-Bad-Ass-With-A-Bow and the Dwarf better toe-to-toe with the fighter.

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Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

Beedo wrote:

The group's cleric just hit level 3, proudly announced that now he would get his first level 2 spell, and when I directed him to review the modified cleric spell progression, he cried shenanigans.  (If you've never matched them head to head, you may be surprised - the WFRP progression is a bit attenuated).

The rationale there is that the Clerics need a lot less XP to advance in level. Clerics have traditionally been a bit of a super-class and I thought that needed to be addressed.

The Grindhouse Edition hastens the Cleric spell progression a bit, but cuts a number of spells available to them.

Beedo wrote:

The other complainants tends to be our dwarf and elf players, who look at the fighter's to-hit advantage and rend their shirts in envy.  (Those who play the fighters are smugly satisfied with the status quo).

The Elf gets spellcasting so screw those complaints.

There is a bit of a problem with the Dwarf and Fighter holding the same conceptual space - fighting. Dwarfs gets better saves, some minor misc abilities (which can become a big deal if you run adventures where those abilities matter more!), and a larger die for hit points.

I wouldn't give anybody a bonus that makes the Fighter anything other than the best fighter in the game though. That's the whole point of the Fighter. For Dwarfs, I made their whole thing "toughness" but maybe using the d10 die isn't enough. Giving them a +1 bonus to the CON modifier (not the CON score itself, but the modifier) might work, guaranteed further +1hp/level... or if you want to make it more unpredictable just up their hit die type to d12.

Remember Elves and Dwarfs do get the advanced fighting options so they do have some leeway in affecting their chances in combat that other non-Fighter classes do not have.

Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

It's always good to get the perspective of the designer.

I tend to agree with you about the cleric; the super fast experience progression offsets a degree of slowing the spell progression.  I think the issue is more of expectation, and (old-time) gamers knowing how those tables have worked for 30+ years.

Here's an example that lays out my concern about the base attack progression.  (James, this example isn't so much for your benefit, I'm sure you live and breath this stuff, but rather for folks that might have only skimmed the rules and haven't chucked any dice or seen how it plays at the table).  For the example, take an 8th level party and throw them up against a classic monster like red dragon.  The standard red dragon (AC -1) would be AC 22 in LOTFP terms.

Our 8th level fighters would be +9 to hit, I'll assume they have a strength bonus and some +2 weapons by 8th level, putting them at +12 - they need a 10 or better, 55% chance to hit, good odds; as we know, fighters are the backbone of the party.

Every other class would be a +1; assuming some +2 items as well, they'd need a 19-20 to hit.  For the cleric and magic user, they have better things to do than melee.  The specialist is probably trying to backstab at +4 (+2, and +2 for sneak attack).

The demi-humans, on the other hand, can no longer carry their weight if they can only hit on a 19+, since they're no better at fighting than magic users.  The WFRP rules have some nifty combat options that fighters, dwarves and elves can all use, so the "press" option provides an additional +2 at the cost of some defense.

One obvious solution (and one I've followed from time to time) is to normalize AC so that most monsters will fall into a 'realistic' AC range - extreme negative armor classes from other systems get pushed down in the AC 20 or worse range.

Another solution is to hand out tissues for the crying.  It's a humanocentric game, sorry you picked a demihuman.  (That one wasn't popular at the table when I suggested it).

My players have been petitioning that I give the demihumans a partial attack bonus progression - not as good as fighters, but something that lets a dwarf (fighter) attack slighly better than a magic-user or cleric of equal level.  Like maybe at level 4 it becomes a +2 bonus, a +3 bonus at level 6, etc.  (Basically half of the fighter's bonus, rounded down, minimum of +1).

Just thinking out loud at this point - wanted to see how it's worked out with other folks.

Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

Beedo wrote:

One obvious solution (and one I've followed from time to time) is to normalize AC so that most monsters will fall into a 'realistic' AC range - extreme negative armor classes from other systems get pushed down in the AC 20 or worse range.

This is what I do.

Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

Rather than "normalize" (aka, think of a new and appropriate) AC for every monster in the game, I created an attack-progression table for the classes. Every class gets better, though Fighters remain far and away the best. I don't have many house rules for WF (by my standards), but this was a necessary one IMO.

Last edited by Irda Ranger (2011-01-21 14:12:41)

Re: Are the demihumans and clerics 'too nerfed' in LOTFP WFRP?

Interesting thoughts from all concerned.

I don't have demi-human PCs and monsters are not exactly thick on the ground so I haven't encountered these problems yet.

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