Topic: Disintegrate

Just a simple question, what keeps the 6th level Magic User spell "Disintegrate" from ruining campaigns?

Instantaneous
120' range
This spell undoes the bonds of creation that keep a single creature or object together. Up to a 10'x10'x10' cube of material is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind no evidence that it ever existed.

It looks to me as though a low level Magic User could spend the time to learn Disintegrate, craft a Scroll with it, and insta-kill the big bad monster of the day, regardless of how powerful it is. (The monster from Tales of the Scarecrow comes to mind)

Am I missing something?

Last edited by davidnusse (2015-05-13 07:05:52)

Re: Disintegrate

I don't think anything prevents that, and I don't think that is bad thing. Research would cost 2,700sp for a guaranteed success, which probably won't be affordable until a Magic-User reaches 2nd or 3rd level.

Creating each scroll would cost another 3,600sp each for a guaranteed success. Of course, you don't need to spend the full amount, but you might fail the roll and lose everything.

However, you can double that cost to 5,400sp for research and 7,200sp per scroll unless the Magic-User has access to a 6,000sp library of materials.

So one scroll would cost the Magic-User about 12,300sp... anything less would risk losing significant portions of that money and having to start over.

A Magic-User will be around 4th or 5th level when that amount of money is acquired (unless they are investment savvy or the campaign is treasure-heavy). It is a choice of how to invest the character's hard earned resources, and the adventuring that goes into building that library and gain the funds for research and scrolls should be interesting itself.

Re: Disintegrate

The revelation isn't that this is totally intended and OK for PCs... but that you can therefore also give this to an NPC low-level Magic-User.

Re: Disintegrate

I wouldn't consider this an "exploit" though, since it was absolutely intended.

But once the Ref uses the exploit, it's fair game for the players too.

In the current example, if you're going to stick a Level 1 MU with a Disintegrate scroll to go against the PCs, the spellbook with the spell in should be accounted for and therefore potentially going to fall into PC hands.

Re: Disintegrate

Ed Dove wrote:

Missed Thing #1:

The only way any campaign can even possibly be "ruined" for anybody is if they have in mind some preconceived notion about what must or must not happen in that campaign to satisfy them.

So the problem here isn't that a low-level Magic-User can possibly use Disintegrate to eliminate a powerful being.  The problem is the preconceived notion that there's something wrong with that.

I didn't mean it that way, but how I asked the question does kind of sound like that was my intention, to prevent players from "ruining" my plans.

What I meant was that a 1000 hit dice monster has little terror factor when you know you have a guaranteed kill scroll (however expensive it may have been to acquire) sitting in your pack (and, it is entirely possible to acquire more of them). That was my concern -- How does the spell not simply deflate what should be a very big piece of the story? It leads to an unsatisfying and anti-climactic situation.

When Satan himself is summoned from the depths of his infernal prison, hearing "I cast Disintegrate" and that's that... it pulls the rug out from underneath something that should have been epic.

Mr. Raggi's reply didn't quite negate my concern, but it definitely opened new possibilities.

Mr. Dove's second point...

Ed Dove wrote:

Missed Thing #2:

And all that adventuring, investment, library building, spell research, and scroll creation not only doesn't "ruin" a campaign, it IS a campaign.

...does put it into greater perspective.

What struck me as odd was that other MU "killing spells" had restrictions to them, while disintegrate does not.

Level 6 Death Spell - Creatures of 8 hit dice or more are immune, also does not work against undead, golems, and other creatures not truly alive.

Level 9 Power Word Kill - Will not affect a creature of 61 or more HP.

But, in the end, I essentially have my answer, so I'll roll with it. Thank you all for your input!

Two final questions on the matter though... Unless otherwise stated, all monster victims of MU spells get a saving throw based on their level and class (modified by int) to completely negate the effects of the spell, yes?

What saving throw number would you use for a 1000 hit dice monster?

Last edited by davidnusse (2015-05-14 11:04:53)

Re: Disintegrate

The 10x10x10' area is in the spell; I certainly wouldn't allow the entire thing from Scarecrow to be disintegrated or even killed from one casting, since the illustrations confirm the thing is many, many times that volume.

Re: Disintegrate

Even if the brain section was targeted? What are the effects of a 10' square lobotomy? Haha

Also, I edited my previous post with two more questions to further complicate the matter.

Last edited by davidnusse (2015-05-14 11:07:56)

Re: Disintegrate

davidnusse wrote:

Just a simple question, what keeps the 6th level Magic User spell "Disintegrate" from ruining campaigns?

Just a simple answer then, the GM not being a dick.

davidnusse wrote:

Am I missing something?

Computer says yes.

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Disintegrate

Cutter wrote:
davidnusse wrote:

Just a simple question, what keeps the 6th level Magic User spell "Disintegrate" from ruining campaigns?

Just a simple answer then, the GM not being a dick.

davidnusse wrote:

Am I missing something?

Computer says yes.

I'm not sure that helped answer anything...

Re: Disintegrate

Ed Dove wrote:

Aren't "terror factor", "should be a very big piece of the story", "unsatisfying and anti-climactic situation" and "should have been epic" indicative of preconceived notions about what must or must not happen in a campaign for it to be satisfying?

Well now we're venturing into some GMing philosophy rather than core rules. Maybe a new thread is in order.

Yes, you're right, they are preconceptions. I think I'm looking at it from the point of view of myself as a player and not a GM. As a player I've been disappointed before by working long and hard toward a personal goal in a campaign, finally reaching the climax of it all, and seeing it fall flat because of a fluke dice roll. "Oh, he just died like that. That's it? It's over?"

But the players in my group are going to do what they enjoy, and if pooling all their SP to create a Disintegrate scroll in an attempt to preemptively nuke an elder god is what floats their boat, then so be it.

And I believe you're right. I need to read through the referee book again for the monster hit dice / saving throw stuff.

Re: Disintegrate

davidnusse wrote:

Unless otherwise stated, all monster victims of MU spells get a saving throw based on their level and class (modified by int) to completely negate the effects of the spell, yes?

Uhm, where does it say that?
Pretty sure they dont get one unless otherwise stated.

Am I missing something?

Re: Disintegrate

Ed Dove wrote:

I thought the opposite -- that everybody and everything gets the option of making a saving throw against every spell unless otherwise stated?

I'm really not sure about this and here is why:

Some spell descriptions explicitly mention the saving throw.
For example: Dispel Evil, Feebleminded

Which lead me to the conclusion that those spells that dont mention a saving throw dont allow for one.

Isn't that the case in most other games as well? Thinking D&D or Pathfinder for example. Of course that doesn't mean it's the same in LotFP, but still...

Would love some clarification on this.

Re: Disintegrate

I agree with Mr. Dove.

The last line in Power Word Kill's description is, "There is no saving throw against this spell."

Which says to me that saving throws against spells is the standard, and variations of that are specifically stated.

Re: Disintegrate

Hms... I dont know. I kind of dont like it. But it would make sense I guess.
Would really love a definite answer, though.

Jim?

Re: Disintegrate

Your knowledge surpasses mine, dear sir.

I dont have much experience with a lot of system, let alone old-school ones.

I guess for now I ll adopt your method of doing it, but would still be interested in a definite answer; otherwise I will keep wondering until the end of my days. tongue

Re: Disintegrate

Gotta send him a bunch of invoices for the books anyway to get them as pdf as well. Might as well add that question. I ll keep you up to date!

Re: Disintegrate

Actually, I've read through a bunch of spell descriptions and it's starting to get obvious that the spell descriptions say whether saving throws are allowed or not, and by default they _probably_ are allowed (or at the discretion of the GM, ofc), but those default cases seem pretty rare. (Sleep comes to mind)

Here are some examples:

Magic Missile
... The caster can throw the full force of the missile at a single target, but if the caster is 2nd level or higher, he can choose to divide the dice of damage between targets as he wishes. Dice must be assigned to targets before any damage is rolled, and targets of these divided dice are allowed a saving throw versus Magic, with success meaning that the target takes half damage. ...

Full foce = no saving throw (although Im not sure on this one, tbh)
Divided = saving throws for half damage

Ray of Emfeeblement
When this spell is cast, a coruscating ray shoots from the caster’s hand. The target of the spell suffers a penalty to his Strength equal to 25%, +2% per caster level beyond level 3. This penalty applies equally to mêlée and missile damage inflicted by an affected creature as well. A successful saving throw versus Magic negates the effect.

An example against your argument, David: Exact opposite of what Power Word Kill says.

But I still agree with you, due to one line in the rulebook, describing saving throws:

Magic includes any magical effect from a cast spell or innate ability.

Although I'm wondering: Doesn't that make Magic-Users kind of far weaker?

Re: Disintegrate

I've always run it as no saving throw unless stated.
Mainly because Sleep doesn't grant a saving throw in old school D&D, and the rest follows on from that.