Topic: Combat Question - press from back rank?

I played a module with the LotFP rules recently that was very fighty.  Our tanks would sit in front and then the weasel guys would hang in the back with spears-- some of these back-rankers were fighters and had access to the special effects.  Is it legal to PRESS if you are in the back rank?

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

littlemute wrote:

I played a module with the LotFP rules recently that was very fighty.  Our tanks would sit in front and then the weasel guys would hang in the back with spears-- some of these back-rankers were fighters and had access to the special effects.  Is it legal to PRESS if you are in the back rank?

If the player can come up with a compelling (and entertaining) rationale as to how they can make a "fierce attack" while 'hiding' behind one of their compatriots, sure.

Otherwise I'd be more inclined to suggest the opposite, that they were setting themselves up for the Defensive Fighting modifiers (+2 AC, -4 to hit).

But that's just my 2 coppers.

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
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Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Actually, it could be a very effective strategy to have a front row of sword and board fighters advancing while using Defensive Fighting, and second row spear/pike fighters using Press. Sounds like good planning to me.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Yuritau wrote:

Actually, it could be a very effective strategy to have a front row of sword and board fighters advancing while using Defensive Fighting, and second row spear/pike fighters using Press. Sounds like good planning to me.

The numbers look good, but how can you effectively fight defensively if you cannot back away to avoid a blow? How can you press when you cannot advance towards the enemy to exploit a weakness? For me, a certain amount of freedom of movement is implicit in these manoeuvres.

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

I've been ruling that these fighting modes are not for those using reach weapons from the back rank; doesn't sit well with me.

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Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Cutter wrote:
Yuritau wrote:

Actually, it could be a very effective strategy to have a front row of sword and board fighters advancing while using Defensive Fighting, and second row spear/pike fighters using Press. Sounds like good planning to me.

The numbers look good, but how can you effectively fight defensively if you cannot back away to avoid a blow? How can you press when you cannot advance towards the enemy to exploit a weakness? For me, a certain amount of freedom of movement is implicit in these manoeuvres.

Fighting defensively just means you are putting most of your effort into defensive maneuvers. That can be as simple as putting all of your attention towards blocking with your shield. No moving around needed for that, especially if you are in a formation with a bunch of other shield bearers.

As for pressing an attack from the second rank.. Have you ever seen a pike? Historically speaking, they were at LEAST ten feet long, and often MUCH LONGER (up to 25 feet). Even someone with no training and no prior combat experience (like me!) could mount a convincing stab attempt around an interposing shield wall.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

I’ll take your point for defensive fighting, but remain unconvinced on the press.

I have no issue with longer weapons being able to strike from behind another player, I don’t buy that those characters would be able to attack in such a way as to get an advantage. You can wave that pointed stick with the vigour of a sewing machine, it won’t make the enemy step into it.

Pikes are great, in massed formations against other massed formations. But in the numbers a classic party is likely to be constructed of they are too easy to parry and step inside the reach of.

On a side note, how much of a cover bonus, if any, would you give to the folk with the spears (littemute’s example) standing behind the front line?

And following that line of thinking, how much of a cover bonus, if any, would you give to the bad guys from attacks originating from the second rank?

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

I personally wouldn't bother with cover bonuses for anyone, unless a second ranker was specifically taking actions to hide behind the first rank, and not making attacks.* If you're actively trying to make attacks around an obstacle, you're exposing enough of yourself that you can be attacked normally by someone on the other side, imho. Instead I'd just look at each declared attack and ask "Is your weapon long enough to do that?" If yes, roll it!

*The Bad Guys could, in theory do the same thing, but they probably don't want to get that close to the first ranks stabbing implements.

Cutter wrote:

Pikes are great, in massed formations against other massed formations. But in the numbers a classic party is likely to be constructed of they are too easy to parry and step inside the reach of.

My favorite use of Pikes/polearms in general in RPGs is narrow hallways. Especially 3e+/PF. Attack of Opportunity Trip attacks are brutally hilarious.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Yuritau wrote:

My favorite use of Pikes/polearms in general in RPGs is narrow hallways. Especially 3e+/PF. Attack of Opportunity Trip attacks are brutally hilarious.

Did/do they have specific rules for such things or were you forging the narrative?

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

D&D 3/PF are very very close to the same thing (people like to call Pathfinder 'D&D 3.75'), and they both have rules for it. Basically, if your weapon has the Trip property, you can use it to make trip attacks without penalty. So when an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you can trip them instead of damaging them. Now.. standing up in a threatened square just happens to be one of the ways to provoke an attack of opportunity.....

And if you REALLY want to get silly, there's a Fighter feat (greater trip) that says that when you successfully trip someone, they provoke an attack of opportunity.

It gets ridiculous pretty fast.

Last edited by Yuritau (2014-07-31 08:02:19)

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

I bought 3 and 3.5 at the time, never ran them, and I own PDFs of the first few Pathfinder books but have never ran it either.

Too many options for the time available.

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Yeah, I never run them either. I don't mind playing them, if someone else takes a turn as GM though, hehe.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

For me, I don't want to negotiate stuff in combat with my players in OD&D.  I want the rules sparkling fucking clear so we can get done with it and move on as soon as possible.  If I want all the negotiation I will bust out FATE or Feng Shui or (gulp) Exalted.  It seems like this is a grey area open to interpretation.  After playing the GW Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, which allows spearmen adjacent to a fighter in melee to add +1 to the melee fighter's attack die, I'm good with the press from behind-- especially if other opponents use it against the party.

That said:
Can you press during a charge?

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

littlemute wrote:

Can you press during a charge?

No.

Last edited by Cutter (2014-08-01 15:57:00)

You people are all alike, you march in here, young, try and touch the local things.
I suppose next you'll be spraying me with one of those cans of paint, smearing poor Tubbs here with excrement.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

littlemute wrote:

For me, I don't want to negotiate stuff in combat with my players in OD&D.  I want the rules sparkling fucking clear so we can get done with it and move on as soon as possible.  If I want all the negotiation I will bust out FATE or Feng Shui or (gulp) Exalted.  It seems like this is a grey area open to interpretation.  After playing the GW Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, which allows spearmen adjacent to a fighter in melee to add +1 to the melee fighter's attack die, I'm good with the press from behind-- especially if other opponents use it against the party.

That said:
Can you press during a charge?

I always felt that the desire for absolute rules for all situations is what drove the evolution from OD&D to modern editions.

Re: Combat Question - press from back rank?

Yuritau wrote:
littlemute wrote:

For me, I don't want to negotiate stuff in combat with my players in OD&D.  I want the rules sparkling fucking clear so we can get done with it and move on as soon as possible.  If I want all the negotiation I will bust out FATE or Feng Shui or (gulp) Exalted.  It seems like this is a grey area open to interpretation.  After playing the GW Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, which allows spearmen adjacent to a fighter in melee to add +1 to the melee fighter's attack die, I'm good with the press from behind-- especially if other opponents use it against the party.

That said:
Can you press during a charge?

I always felt that the desire for absolute rules for all situations is what drove the evolution from OD&D to modern editions.

Sure, but there's a baseline of rules that are in the game that need to be clear.  Press, Charge, Defense, grappling, second rank attacks aren't really a resounding amount of rules for combat. You can cover just about everything else with a +2/-2.