Topic: Silver Standard

I get why it was done, it makes it more down to earth/gritty... More realistic. Fine.

HOWEVER...

Every other OSR/d20/D&D variant out there uses the Gold standard. Even some in-house products do! Death Frost Doom uses the Gold Standard (I believe the first version of Weird Fantasy did too, but I'm not sure), so does Vornheim!

I'm actually thinking that in some cases, people are better off sticking to the gold standard and just converting the equipment prices from the main books and latest LotFP adventures instead of doing so every time they use a D&D book from another source. It really just depends on how many other books you'll use, but it's worth pointing out.

Anyway, does anyone feel like the silver standard was worth the trouble? Personally, I like it in theory but hate it in practice given that in the end, it doesn't change much game-wise but leads to more book-keeping.

Re: Silver Standard

I love the silver standard. The biggest reason why I love it is it cuts down the complexity of the monetary system by 25%. Every system I've personally seen that uses the gold standard has the same 4 denominations: copper, silver, gold, and platinum (with electrum thrown in for fun in some systems). The only purpose Platinum serves in those systems is cut down on the number of coins carried, because players end up with such vast quantities of gold and silver. In the silver standard system, you only need three denominations, because silver is the baseline, and you can upgrade to gold to keep the quantity of coins down.

Also, it also makes any appearance of gold (jewelry, tableware, etc) that much more special. For example, imagine the party just found a golden platter in a dungeon, and lets say that the platter is made of about the same amount of gold as it would take to make 25 gold coins. Depending on the quality of craftsmanship that went into making the platter, it's probably worth 25-50 gold coins (assuming no decorative gems). If you're using a gold standard system, that platter represents approximately one quarter to one half of the average starting wealth of a player character (in some systems, like Pathfinder, certain classes can start with as much as 300 gold). Some players might not even bother carrying that back to town, especially a few levels in.

But in LotFP's silver standard, that exact same platter is worth 7-14 times as much as the MAXIMUM starting wealth of a player character (1250-2500 silver). Even at higher levels, that would be worth carrying back to town, IMHO.

And finally, the other thing the silver standard does is make copper coins relevant again. When was the last time you played in a gold standard system and actually cared about copper? (treasures containing 5000+ copper coins don't count, cause those are just silly to begin with) In the silver standard system, it's actually worth carrying around a couple dozen copper coins, since most common-folk and beggars likely deal in copper almost exclusively anyways. In my experience it's rare to see even lower level players in gold standard games bother recording copper on their sheets. Often not even silver!

Re: Silver Standard

Yuritau wrote:

I love the silver standard. The biggest reason why I love it is it cuts down the complexity of the monetary system by 25%. Every system I've personally seen that uses the gold standard has the same 4 denominations: copper, silver, gold, and platinum (with electrum thrown in for fun in some systems). The only purpose Platinum serves in those systems is cut down on the number of coins carried, because players end up with such vast quantities of gold and silver. In the silver standard system, you only need three denominations, because silver is the baseline, and you can upgrade to gold to keep the quantity of coins down.

Also, it also makes any appearance of gold (jewelry, tableware, etc) that much more special. For example, imagine the party just found a golden platter in a dungeon, and lets say that the platter is made of about the same amount of gold as it would take to make 25 gold coins. Depending on the quality of craftsmanship that went into making the platter, it's probably worth 25-50 gold coins (assuming no decorative gems). If you're using a gold standard system, that platter represents approximately one quarter to one half of the average starting wealth of a player character (in some systems, like Pathfinder, certain classes can start with as much as 300 gold). Some players might not even bother carrying that back to town, especially a few levels in.

But in LotFP's silver standard, that exact same platter is worth 7-14 times as much as the MAXIMUM starting wealth of a player character (1250-2500 silver). Even at higher levels, that would be worth carrying back to town, IMHO.

And finally, the other thing the silver standard does is make copper coins relevant again. When was the last time you played in a gold standard system and actually cared about copper? (treasures containing 5000+ copper coins don't count, cause those are just silly to begin with) In the silver standard system, it's actually worth carrying around a couple dozen copper coins, since most common-folk and beggars likely deal in copper almost exclusively anyways. In my experience it's rare to see even lower level players in gold standard games bother recording copper on their sheets. Often not even silver!

True... As a side-note, my previous 'more book-keeping' should have been 'more converting'.

I remember a 3.5 player who wouldn't even want change so as not to carry copper! O_O lol

Plus I like the idea of an adventurer being ambushed by desperate villagers who saw he had GOLD! tongue

Anyway, like I said, I like it personally, I was just pointing out that it can be a pain to use other books with it... (But admittedly not THAT bad, I think I exaggerated in my OP)

Re: Silver Standard

I am firmly in the silver standard camp as well. I have been for about 20 years of gaming. I started when playing Runequest in the late 80's. There is no historical basis for using a gold standard or the silly large coins of A DnD.

Just knocking everything down a notch is not that hard. Then gold becomes pretty darn special.

Re: Silver Standard

To be honest, I've even given thought to removing copper from the system completely and only having silver and gold. And if there's ever a need for less than one silver, just cut the coins in half or quarters to make change, like the romans did.

Re: Silver Standard

I see Yuritau's point. Note, however, that the 25gp jewel (gold standard) equals to a 25sp jewel (silver standard); they are, for all purposes, the same (except, as you mentioned, copper pieces are back).

All in all, it really is a fashion choice.

Re: Silver Standard

YnasMidgard wrote:

I see Yuritau's point. Note, however, that the 25gp jewel (gold standard) equals to a 25sp jewel (silver standard); they are, for all purposes, the same (except, as you mentioned, copper pieces are back).

All in all, it really is a fashion choice.

Yeah, for things where the GM gets to set the value as arbitrarily as he likes, the numbers can carry over as directly as you want them to. It's the specific case of items MADE of gold where things are much more interesting in the Silver Standard. big_smile

Re: Silver Standard

Yuritau wrote:
YnasMidgard wrote:

I see Yuritau's point. Note, however, that the 25gp jewel (gold standard) equals to a 25sp jewel (silver standard); they are, for all purposes, the same (except, as you mentioned, copper pieces are back).

All in all, it really is a fashion choice.

Yeah, for things where the GM gets to set the value as arbitrarily as he likes, the numbers can carry over as directly as you want them to. It's the specific case of items MADE of gold where things are much more interesting in the Silver Standard. big_smile

Since you mention that... Can anyone help me with the value of a gold candlestick? It's part of the treasure in an OSR dungeon I'll be using for my game... XD

Re: Silver Standard

I would just get my hands on an actual candlestick (if you don't own any, borrow one from mom, or just spend 2 minutes in a store that has em) and guesstimate how many coins worth of metal went into it (I use Canadian $2 coins as my guide).  I'd say 50-75 for a one candle stick about 6-8" tall.

In the end, fudge it any way you want to, but if you go too far in either direction, clever players will abuse the conversion to their benefit, heh.

Re: Silver Standard

I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be a table candlestick. xD But thanks for the tip, it still applies.

Last edited by Treant_on_Fire (2013-04-13 03:42:00)

Re: Silver Standard

Personally I've always loved the silver standard because it makes gold very special. The look of a on players faces when they find something made of gold is priceless.

As others have said its also more realistic and given LotFPs pretty harsh encumbrance rules its important to allow the PCs to actually leave with a decent haul.

Re: Silver Standard

Yuritau wrote:
YnasMidgard wrote:

I see Yuritau's point. Note, however, that the 25gp jewel (gold standard) equals to a 25sp jewel (silver standard); they are, for all purposes, the same (except, as you mentioned, copper pieces are back).

All in all, it really is a fashion choice.

Yeah, for things where the GM gets to set the value as arbitrarily as he likes, the numbers can carry over as directly as you want them to. It's the specific case of items MADE of gold where things are much more interesting in the Silver Standard. big_smile

Is that so? Let's say, how much silver pieces do you think the following items are worth in a silver standard setting (I give their price in gold pieces in a gold standard setting):
- a light crossbow (25 gp)
- a mule (50 gp)
- a mediocre gem (150 gp)
- a golden crown (500 gp)

Given that there is evidence - the LotFP rulebook's chapter on equipment and the starting wealth of characters - suggesting that there is a 1:1 ratio of LotFP's silver pieces to other D&D-esque games' gold pieces, I can only come to the conclusion that the LotFP prices of the aforementioned items are 25sp, 50sp, 150sp, and 500sp, respectively. Assigning prices otherwise would actually change their value compared to each other.

Note, that there IS a change of value in LotFP, but that has nothing to do with the silver standard: (1) it is due to legal reasons and (2) personal taste (James apparently doesn't like Fighters starting with Plate + Shield).

Re: Silver Standard

YnasMidgard wrote:
Yuritau wrote:
YnasMidgard wrote:

I see Yuritau's point. Note, however, that the 25gp jewel (gold standard) equals to a 25sp jewel (silver standard); they are, for all purposes, the same (except, as you mentioned, copper pieces are back).

All in all, it really is a fashion choice.

Yeah, for things where the GM gets to set the value as arbitrarily as he likes, the numbers can carry over as directly as you want them to. It's the specific case of items MADE of gold where things are much more interesting in the Silver Standard. big_smile

Is that so? Let's say, how much silver pieces do you think the following items are worth in a silver standard setting (I give their price in gold pieces in a gold standard setting):
- a light crossbow (25 gp)
- a mule (50 gp)
- a mediocre gem (150 gp)
- a golden crown (500 gp)

Given that there is evidence - the LotFP rulebook's chapter on equipment and the starting wealth of characters - suggesting that there is a 1:1 ratio of LotFP's silver pieces to other D&D-esque games' gold pieces, I can only come to the conclusion that the LotFP prices of the aforementioned items are 25sp, 50sp, 150sp, and 500sp, respectively. Assigning prices otherwise would actually change their value compared to each other.

Note, that there IS a change of value in LotFP, but that has nothing to do with the silver standard: (1) it is due to legal reasons and (2) personal taste (James apparently doesn't like Fighters starting with Plate + Shield).

The crossbow, mule, and gem prices of course carry over directly (the crossbow and mule are even listed in the Rules & Magic book at those prices). But that has nothing at all to do with the worth of the gold crown, not even by comparison.

In the gold standard system, you can easily say that a gold crown is worth 500gp (despite the fact that there's almost certainly nowhere near 500 coins worth of gold in the crown, by weight*) simply by saying it has good/decent craftsmanship or other adornments etc.

*For reference, I base my estimations of coin size/weight roughly on roman coins, or approx 3-4cm in diameter, and approx 2-3mm thick

In LotFP's silver standard, 1 gold coin is worth 50 silver pieces. If you want to tell me that a crown made of gold is only worth 500sp (or 10gp), then your definition of 'crown' had best equate to 'circlet', cause an actual crown made of gold absolutely has FAR more than 10 coins worth of gold in its construction. (As an example, here's a relatively plain crown made for Napolean) I would guess closer to 30-50 coins worth of gold. That would put the crown at about a 1500-2500sp value.

This is why I said before that the silver standard system makes items MADE of gold much more interesting. You can't just convert the numbers. You have to consider how much gold is actually in the item. If I offered 500sp to my players for a crown made of gold, they'd just laugh and go melt it down into a gold ingot worth at the very least twice as much.

Re: Silver Standard

Yuritau wrote:

In LotFP's silver standard, 1 gold coin is worth 50 silver pieces. If you want to tell me that a crown made of gold is only worth 500sp (or 10gp), then your definition of 'crown' had best equate to 'circlet', cause an actual crown made of gold absolutely has FAR more than 10 coins worth of gold in its construction. (As an example, here's a relatively plain crown made for Napolean) I would guess closer to 30-50 coins worth of gold. That would put the crown at about a 1500-2500sp value

This assumes that gold coins are only worth their weight in gold, which kind of negates the value in minting them in the first place. The ''gold'' and ''silver'' standards I think most people are used to dealing with would stem from backing currency with precious metals reserves, right? Is that what's really going on here? I think you'd more be dealing with coinage as an intermediary unit of exchange; if you'd trade two crossbows for a mule, then a mule should be worth twice as much as a crossbow when it comes to currency-based pricing.

Re: Silver Standard

kaomera wrote:
Yuritau wrote:

In LotFP's silver standard, 1 gold coin is worth 50 silver pieces. If you want to tell me that a crown made of gold is only worth 500sp (or 10gp), then your definition of 'crown' had best equate to 'circlet', cause an actual crown made of gold absolutely has FAR more than 10 coins worth of gold in its construction. (As an example, here's a relatively plain crown made for Napolean) I would guess closer to 30-50 coins worth of gold. That would put the crown at about a 1500-2500sp value

This assumes that gold coins are only worth their weight in gold, which kind of negates the value in minting them in the first place. The ''gold'' and ''silver'' standards I think most people are used to dealing with would stem from backing currency with precious metals reserves, right? Is that what's really going on here? I think you'd more be dealing with coinage as an intermediary unit of exchange; if you'd trade two crossbows for a mule, then a mule should be worth twice as much as a crossbow when it comes to currency-based pricing.

At least in Roman times (I don't know as much about medieval times), weight is exactly how coins were valued, they didn't even print denominations on them. Minting was just a way of standardizing a handy unit amount. If you needed to make change smaller than 1 silver coin, you often just cut a coin into 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8.

The thing with using precious metals as your physical currency is it makes reserves kind of irrelevant. You're not saying "I promise this is worth X." You're trading on the physical value of the precious metal.

Reserve-based valuation is basically "We have X amount of gold in a cave over here, but we don't like carrying it around, so we use this piece of paper as a promissory note. Anytime you want to, you can bring us Y number of papers and we'll give you that much value of gold."

Re: Silver Standard

Devaluation happened primarily during the middle ages in Britain, beginning mostly with William the Conquerer and going from there, where coin standards were constantly being shifted (how much silver is in a silver coin, how much gold...). However, until Henry the VIII coins were worth purely their weight, after Henry many coins were valued based on an arbitrary standard (X pennies to a Y) instead of their weight.

In RPG terms I always, ALWAYS, use coinage valued by its weight, not an arbitrary numbering system. If 100 silver coins are the same value as a gold coin, then that much raw silver is worth that much raw gold (Right this second it's closer to 63 to 1 based on USD value of a both). Since coinage is never a set weight from mint to mint, let alone era to era, it's much easier to just say treasure is worth weight, not value, and attach the weight to something simple (As an example, 1 ounce of silver could keep a farm running for a month) and extrapolate from there. So a party doesn't find 10,000 silver coins in a pile, they find, say, a hundred ounces of silver, which is enough to fund a barony for quite some time. Or get blown on equipment and whores. Whatever.

Last edited by Nimdok (2013-05-28 02:37:27)

Re: Silver Standard

Yuritau wrote:

The crossbow, mule, and gem prices of course carry over directly (the crossbow and mule are even listed in the Rules & Magic book at those prices). But that has nothing at all to do with the worth of the gold crown, not even by comparison.

If converting value-X from value-system-A to value-system-B result in value-Y, then value-100X should yield us value-100Y.


Yuritau wrote:

In the gold standard system, you can easily say that a gold crown is worth 500gp (despite the fact that there's almost certainly nowhere near 500 coins worth of gold in the crown, by weight*) simply by saying it has good/decent craftsmanship or other adornments etc.

*For reference, I base my estimations of coin size/weight roughly on roman coins, or approx 3-4cm in diameter, and approx 2-3mm thick

Assume the crown's value were given in how many crossbows it is worth - say, 20 crossbows. To get how many gold pieces or silver pieces the crown is worth we only have to multiply 20 by the individual price of crossbows: 500gp in gold standard and 500sp in silver standard.

Conversion can only be done successfully, if the individual items converted have the same ratio of value compared to each other; otherwise, it is not really conversion but revaluation.

At least, that's my opinion. I must add that my approach is based on gameability and has absolutely nothing to do with historic reality whatsoever (just as RPGs themselves).

Re: Silver Standard

Well, you can do it however you want to in your home game, but I'm here to tell you that if I were ever to play in a game where someone did the conversion to silver standard without making adjustments to items made of gold (and even some items made of silver), the first thing I would do is abuse the hell out of the situation until the GM fixed the oversight.

Here's a concrete example using a standard item from D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder equipment lists, the silver holy symbol (cost 25gp, weight 1 lb).

-Under the gold standard, that price makes sense. It is worth 250 silver coins (despite only having the raw weight of 50 silver coins), because of the time and workmanship it took to fashion it into a religious focus.
-Under the silver standard (according to your direct-conversion-only method), it is worth 25 silver coins, despite having the raw weight of 50 silver coins. Crafting time and skill do not even factor into the cost.

Here's what I'm gonna do if anyone tries to run a game with the direct-conversion-only silver standard: spend all of my starting wealth on silver holy symbols (and one crucible), and melt them into coins. Hey look at that, double my money on every trip.

And that's just silver. In the Frostfell Rift module for 3.5, one enemy carries a gold holy symbol, worth 250gp (presumably also weighing 1 lb). Converting that price directly to silver standard, without making an adjustment for the fact that it is MADE OF GOLD results in an item that has a value of 250 silver coins (or 5 gold coins) despite having the raw weight of 50 gold coins. Using the same methods as the silver holy symbols above, one could multiply their wealth by ten just through the purchase of gold holy symbols.