Topic: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

I've never been satisfied with the 1D6 skill system. It has always bugged me that ability score modifiers didn't apply to anything other than opening stuck doors. I get that the 1D6 has no room for the -3 to +3 that could apply and I know that James used the 1D6 from the search mechanic. Still, there's the old reaction adjustment and retainer moral mechanic that used 2D6 and the Charisma modifier. For retainer moral, in particular, 9+ was a successful result and 12+ was an exceptional result.

I prefer using a 2d6 system for the skill checks. I use two target numbers for success: 9+ and 12+. The 9+ is for any task that is reasonably associated with the class and the 12+ is for stuff that is unfamiliar. So a fighter or dwarf would need a 9+ to kick down a door and a wizard or elf would need a 12+ (based on the image of the elf beside the class description in the rules book). These can also be used to fit different difficulties, such as 9+ for the stuck door and 12+ for a locked door.

All stat bonuses (and penalties) apply and, thanks to the nifty curve, the bonuses each race or class use to get for their 1D6 roll works perfectly fine for their new 2D6 roll. So a Halfling who would normally use stealth on a 5 in 6 chance (1 that everyone gets + 4 for being a Halfling) now receives a +4 on the 2D6 Stealth roll. When you factor in the +1 Dexterity Bonus for a Halfling your get a successful roll for Stealth on a 4+, which doesn't fall too far outside of the 5 chances in 6 that they have now. Specialists can just record where they put their points for bonuses to rolls. No other changes necessary.

I tried D20 hacks to skills based on Saving Throw mechanics and 3D6 hacks based on something I've been working on but the 2D6 integrates the best into what is already in the rules and requires the least amount of work to adapt.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

Personally, I very much like the D6 system precisely because I don't think stats should figure into skills too much. Open Doors is an excellent exception, but I have broken this specific skill off from the skill system and use it more as a general "feat of strength". I sometimes call for similar D6 rolls with stat modifiers for other activities, such as perhaps balancing or remembering specific information, but that is purely situational and not something I codify.

That being said, I must admit that this system is very appealing from a purely mechanical point-of-view and I think you have the probabilities pretty much nailed.

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Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

I've been happy with this skill system so far but I had an interesting situation in a game on Tuesday evening. We were playing Tower of the Stargazer and the group wanted to use their crowbar and some leverage to bend some bars it a portcullis. The kicker was they wanted to do it together. There was enough room for it so I said they could apply the bonus of the highest strength and then another +2 for the two extra people. I did not allow the other two to apply their strength bonuses though.

It made sense at the time and they managed to get the 12+ target number so everyone was happy. Any thoughts on a way to add help from cooperation to a skill roll? Either in this model for skills or the normal D6 method.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

For tests of strength or something that can be tied 1-to-1 with an Ability, I have players do a d20 "roll at or under" with a negative modifier based on difficulty of the task.
That's how I would have handled your crowbar situation, anyway.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

You could create a hybrid with Vincent Baker's Apocalypse world. It uses a 2D6 mechanic. 7-9 is for partial success (i.e. a success, but with consequences, and these depends on what you're rolling), 10+ is for perfect success (with no consequences).
You should take the time to define consequences for each skill but there aren't so many so it shouldn't be bad.

For example, with Open Doors a 7-9 success could cause you to roll for a random encounter because you opened the door but caused a frightful lot of noise.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

So would a Specialist with 6 ranks in Stealth instead add +5 to the 2d6+Dex?

I think your Cooperative Rolls idea works just fine.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

islan wrote:

So would a Specialist with 6 ranks in Stealth instead add +5 to the 2d6+Dex?

I think your Cooperative Rolls idea works just fine.

That's correct. So the Specialist would succeed on 4+ unless Dex modified the roll. So this leaves slightly worse odds than the 1D6 system where a 6+ rating would only fail on box cars whereas in this case the Specialist can fail on snake-eyes or a three. I like the the effect of the curve though, as it creates diminishing returns on greater mastery. It's realistic to have improvement for a master is less dramatic than someone of lower skill.

The two dice leave room for Cooperative Rolls which I like too, thanks.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

I must say, I do believe I quite prefer this methodology as it easily can be expanded to include regular ability checks, which I wish LotFP was not lacking in.

I have compared the two systems and they match up rather well, with the 2d6 method having a higher chance at lower ranks but a lower chance at higher ranks.

Regular "X out of 6" method chance of success Compared to "2d6+Mods" TN of 9 chance of success:
(1/6)        17%        |    28%        2d6
(2/6)        33%        |    42%        2d6+1
(3/6)        50%        |    58%        2d6+2
(4/6)        67%        |    72%        2d6+3
(5/6)        83%        |    83%        2d6+4
(6/6)        97%        |    92%        2d6+5

In addition, of course, the 2d6 has a wider range with the addition of ability modifiers:


                TN 9        TN 12
2d6-3        3%            0%
2d6-2        8%            0%
2d6-1        17%            0%
2d6            28%            3%
2d6+1        42%            8%
2d6+2        58%            17%
2d6+3        72%            28%
2d6+4        83%            42%
2d6+5        92%            59%
2d6+6        97%            72%
2d6+7        97%            83%
2d6+8        97%            92%

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

Just to share, I've decided to modify this new method a little for my own uses:

I changed the standard TN from 9 to 10, and instead of converting the old system "roll 6 or less" to "roll 2d6+5" it will just be 2d6+6.  In other words, the rules "everyone starts with 1 point in (almost) each skill" remains the same, and I just increased the TN by one so that the math stays the same.  So a level 1 Cleric with a Dex of 10 will roll 2d6+1 vs. TN 10 when trying to use Sneak, for example.  Whereas a level 1 Specialist with 16 (+2) Dex and 4 points in Stealth (for a total of 5) will roll 2d6+7 vs. TN 10.

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

I like both of these approaches. If you want to keep a d6 roll but allow for larger target numbers so you can add stat bonuses, you could always allow exploding dice as described here: http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/discussion/post/2824/#p2824

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

islan wrote:

Just to share, I've decided to modify this new method a little for my own uses:

I changed the standard TN from 9 to 10, and instead of converting the old system "roll 6 or less" to "roll 2d6+5" it will just be 2d6+6.  In other words, the rules "everyone starts with 1 point in (almost) each skill" remains the same, and I just increased the TN by one so that the math stays the same.  So a level 1 Cleric with a Dex of 10 will roll 2d6+1 vs. TN 10 when trying to use Sneak, for example.  Whereas a level 1 Specialist with 16 (+2) Dex and 4 points in Stealth (for a total of 5) will roll 2d6+7 vs. TN 10.

Seems like a pretty flat result for the specialist, he is going to make that 97% of the time or something. idk somehow mods over about 30% of the max roll just seem to overpower the random element for me. i.e. on a 2d6 a bonus of 5+ seems too heavy. You looked at a 3d6 curve though right, and that was tougher to integrate?

Really if it works at the table and makes sense in your head that's all you need.

I'm going to take a page from West End Games D6 Star Wars and have the character roll 1d6 for each skill point, max will be 6 dice. So a char with Stealth of 3 would throw 3d6 and to succeed any one die needs to come up 1. That way even with maxed out skill of 6 there is still a chance of failure. And it still allows everyone a 1 in 6 chance to do anything, I like that.

I'm considering allowing an additional die for ability mods to be used. With the 6 die max this would give the char a higher chance of success early on and it would max out the skill dice sooner effectively giving them more skill points latter on. Idk again though, it might make abilities too weighty.

Last edited by Bluespruce786 (2013-01-02 21:20:13)

Re: Unhappy with 1D6 Skills...

Well it would be an auto-failure on snake-eyes, I should probably add.  And situational modifiers can come up.  The best possibly result for a Skill would be a Specialist with 6 points in it along with an 18 in the related Ability Score, resulting in a total modifier of +9 (i.e., will always succeed outside of snake eyes).  This I would consider a "true master" of the skill, but when they are, say, trying to sneak across a leaf-covered forest floor, or trying to steal the pants off an unsuspecting tavern patron, they will definitely see some penalties to their roll.

Last edited by islan (2013-01-03 16:17:11)