Topic: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Over on youtube there is a discussion about rules heavy systems VS rules light ones. I'm all for the rules light, just enough mechanic to add some tension and structure to the story. But one advantage that the more complex games seemed to have was their ability to hold the tables attention over the course of loooong campaigns, more than 2 or 3 months.

3 or 4 months is about the longest that I have run a campaign. RL has never settled down to a point where I could do a regular game. So for me LotFP is perfect. But what about for people who desire to run the long style campaign over the course of years? Has anyone here tried that with Lamentations? How did it go?

Thanks for your time.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

The longest running single campaign I've ever participated in was using the Savage Worlds system, which is definitely on the rules light side of things.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Yuritau wrote:

The longest running single campaign I've ever participated in was using the Savage Worlds system, which is definitely on the rules light side of things.


I have heard a lot of good things about savage worlds. Might have to give that a look sometime.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

LotFP is, at heart, a revsion of Basic/Expert D&D, a game I played continuously for ten years without expansion or supplement, so I'd say yes, it has legs.

Last edited by Andrew S (2012-12-06 09:10:51)

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Andrew S wrote:

LotFP is, at heart, a revsion of Basic/Expert D&D, a game I played continuously for ten years without expansion or supplement, so I'd say yes, it has legs.

Its funny you say Basic/expert I ran into another guy on the DDN forum who said the same thing. Which is great to hear because Lamentations has much of the same feel. Just needs a cool bestiary and magic item guide.

I'm going to run LotFP until DDN has been out for a while, then I will look at that. Thats way in the future though and from what I read over on the DDN playtest I don't think they will do what they need to.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Bluespruce786 wrote:

Just needs a cool bestiary and magic item guide.

I think the lack of a bestiary is perhaps the single coolest thing about LotFP. I agree with what James wrote in his Random Esoteric Creature Generator:

"Monsters that are not unique are not mystical creatures of wonder. They are simply animals, and the typical adventuring party is more on an African safari than participating in High Adventure when they face such foes. In fact, the idea of a standardized monster list for anything other than setting an example is probably the worst thing that happened to role-playing games."

I feel the same way about magic items.

For my money, the 32-page Random Esoteric Creature Generator is worth more than a whole stack of various monster manuals. It can be bought at nobleknight.com for either $5.50 or $6.49.

Last edited by Geoffrey (2012-12-06 17:45:18)

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

I am in 100% agreement with you and Jim here, for myself and the place that I am at as a gamer and DM. But back in the days I loved reading those old descriptions; I would spend just untold hours reading through TABLE (III.E.) 1. TREASURE (MISCELLANEOUS MAGIC) And I remember bringing the MM on vacation to the Bahama’s as a kid of 12 or 13!

ttRPG’s are meant to be played, and that is certainly how LotFP is written. But actual game play is not the beginning for most people. At least for myself I got sucked in by those old charts and tables and fanciful meanderings of the old E.G.G.

And so I would like to see a MM and Magic item list that is a window into Mr. Raggi’s mind as well. To me it would be interesting, and maybe it will help to draw my kids into the game when they are that age.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

James Raggi wrote:

Monsters that are not unique are not mystical creatures of wonder. They are simply animals, and the typical adventuring party is more on an African safari than participating in High Adventure when they face such foes. In fact, the idea of a standardized monster list for anything other than setting an example is probably the worst thing that happened to role-playing games.

While agreeing with Dr. Raggi's diagnosis of the patient's condition, I tend to disagree with his chosen prescription.  While pregenerated lists of monsters can make encounters mundane instead of mysterious, I'd like to see a bestiary that focuses heavily on the myths and lore of mysterious creatures. 

Instead of attaching a bit of fluff to some stat blocks, any included statistics would be loose suggestions attached to the provided lore. 

To choose an example, let's take "Goblins".  They might simply prove to be scuttling wretches that haunt the darkness, tormenting travelers caught out after dark, but they might instead....

- Ride forth on moonless nights, mounted upon massive, bone-white hounds.  The goblins hunt the lost souls of those who have died over the previous month, trading them to buy the midnight favors of sinister hags and demonologists.

- Abduct unwanted children, replacing them with strange, animated figures, malevolent travesties of stolen children made of braided straw and tallow.  The goblins' victims suffer an agonizing transformation into goblin form, then labor for 100 years as the true goblins' thralls.  By the time their servitude ends, they have become goblins in more than their likeness.

- Enchant colorful beads, spiced meats, and candied fruit, which they trade to unwitting villagers.  The items enspell those who purchase them, granting them petty magical abilities at the cost of their health, sanity, or soul.

- Creep into the villages after dusk to eavesdrop at villagers' windows, chimney, and threshold, then whisper their secrets into the dreams of whomever most dislikes them.  Villagers know to leave a large flagon of ale sitting near their cottages, for the nightly sneaks cannot resist drinking their fill.

Each (or all) of these descriptions might be true and would carry their own stat block implications.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

I really liked the siren from Weird New World as an example of a traditional type of monster that might show up in a regular bestiary, but the interpretation in WNW was inspired.  Of course, I'd hope most DM's  could do that themselves.

I could get behind a collection of weird-inspired magic items, I always struggle a bit with those myself.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

A bestiary based upon the creatures found in the Elder Pliny's Natural History could be interesting. Though probably more interesting as an in game item then anything else.

I second the struggles with magic items. Learning at the knee of 3.5 I believe stunted my creativity when most magic is +1 flaming burst sword or the like.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

The God that Crawls has a vault with dozens of strange magic items.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Sir Wulf wrote:
James Raggi wrote:

Monsters that are not unique are not mystical creatures of wonder. They are simply animals, and the typical adventuring party is more on an African safari than participating in High Adventure when they face such foes. In fact, the idea of a standardized monster list for anything other than setting an example is probably the worst thing that happened to role-playing games.

While agreeing with Dr. Raggi's diagnosis of the patient's condition, I tend to disagree with his chosen prescription.  While pregenerated lists of monsters can make encounters mundane instead of mysterious, I'd like to see a bestiary that focuses heavily on the myths and lore of mysterious creatures. 

Instead of attaching a bit of fluff to some stat blocks, any included statistics would be loose suggestions attached to the provided lore. 

To choose an example, let's take "Goblins".  They might simply prove to be scuttling wretches that haunt the darkness, tormenting travelers caught out after dark, but they might instead....

- Ride forth on moonless nights, mounted upon massive, bone-white hounds.  The goblins hunt the lost souls of those who have died over the previous month, trading them to buy the midnight favors of sinister hags and demonologists.

- Abduct unwanted children, replacing them with strange, animated figures, malevolent travesties of stolen children made of braided straw and tallow.  The goblins' victims suffer an agonizing transformation into goblin form, then labor for 100 years as the true goblins' thralls.  By the time their servitude ends, they have become goblins in more than their likeness.

- Enchant colorful beads, spiced meats, and candied fruit, which they trade to unwitting villagers.  The items enspell those who purchase them, granting them petty magical abilities at the cost of their health, sanity, or soul.

- Creep into the villages after dusk to eavesdrop at villagers' windows, chimney, and threshold, then whisper their secrets into the dreams of whomever most dislikes them.  Villagers know to leave a large flagon of ale sitting near their cottages, for the nightly sneaks cannot resist drinking their fill.

Each (or all) of these descriptions might be true and would carry their own stat block implications.

Sir Wulf you need to write a whole book of boxed text! I have always wanted a supplement like that, boxed text ready to read to the players, that covers a wide variety of events and items that they might run into. I can describe a scene, but its work sometimes, and I'm not a profesional writer, lets get some good writers and give me some help here!

=-) anyway, I printed out your descriptions and pasted them into my MM, if you have anymore or a blog or whatever please post em up!

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

JimLotFP wrote:

The God that Crawls has a vault with dozens of strange magic items.

Cool, I will add that to my list of stuff to get =-) I want to get Joop Van Ooms, the people of Pembrotonishire, and the Monument that fell from stace and pime. Great stuff, Death Frost Doom and Tower of the Stargazer are some of the best modules that I have ever read, can't wait to run some PC's through there muhahaha. Think I'll have them use pregens =-)

I think The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun is the best of Gygax because of how creepy the lower cyst feels. DFD has that same kind of affect.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Beedo wrote:

I really liked the siren from Weird New World as an example of a traditional type of monster that might show up in a regular bestiary, but the interpretation in WNW was inspired.  Of course, I'd hope most DM's  could do that themselves.

I could get behind a collection of weird-inspired magic items, I always struggle a bit with those myself.

Theres a thread over on DDN talking about favorite magic items. Lots of intelligent weapons so far. For myself I like magic items with cool powers but striking limitations. Like the bag of endless rope; you can pull out as much rope as you need, but if it get cut the bag breaks, and the bag itself weighs 100+pounds so its a pain to carry around.   

I have a video where I talk a bit about cool magic items youtube vid talking about DM tricks with a section on magic items

Just FF to 3:30 min to get to the magic items, they are simple magic items that had a big effect on games that I have run.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

I'm with Geoffrey; one of LotFP's great selling points is it's lack of bestiary. Too many RPGs of similar tone (WFRP, Cthulhu, etc) have fallen into the trap of cataloguing and speciation, with the finest of cosmetic details sufficient divergence for new entries. Whilst initially helpful the end results are almost uniformly repetitive and bland, culminating in hill dwarves, night goblins and fluffy Cthulhu. By contrast, an effective game of Lamentations results in players' never being able to anticipate what's lurking round the corner, stuffed up the chimney or swimming in the loo. Prior to running Death Love Doom I made my players explicitly aware of this -- their mounting dread as they made their way through the coach house before encountering Myrna was all the more potent for it.

Last edited by Andrew S (2012-12-07 17:21:44)

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

... which also relates to the original question. In James's own words LotFP is less a game about "what can my character do" and more "what is my character doing right now?"

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Andrew S wrote:

I'm with Geoffrey; one of LotFP's great selling points is it's lack of bestiary. Too many RPGs of similar tone (WFRP, Cthulhu, etc) have fallen into the trap of cataloguing and speciation, with the finest of cosmetic details sufficient divergence for new entries. Whilst initially helpful the end results are almost uniformly repetitive and bland, culminating in hill dwarves, night goblins and fluffy Cthulhu. By contrast, an effective game of Lamentations results in players' never being able to anticipate what's lurking round the corner, stuffed up the chimney or swimming in the loo. Prior to running Death Love Doom I made my players explicitly aware of this -- their mounting dread as they made their way through the coach house before encountering Myrna was all the more potent for it.

It's a good point now that I look at it again. A bestiary labeled LotFP or Weird Fantasy would set a tone for the game as a whole. And you guys are certainly correct about how classification of monsters leads to bland individual entries and encounters.

But it doesn't need to be presented that way either; Vornheim is a world that is very different from Lamentations and it was released under the same label.

The thing about having a MM is the combinations that come to mind. In my world goblins are spawned by yellow mold; the yellow musk creeper and its zombie thralls are also part of that biology. I like the combination and it was created by comparing my collection of bestiary's and seeing what fit together.

I think ultimately the matter rests with Jim; If he is inspired to create such a thing then it will come into being. If such a project just seems dull and without adventure then it will not. I'm OK with that. There's plenty of LotFP material that I want to get way before I would even consider getting yet another MM anyway.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Yeah, monster manuals are almost as ubiquitous as their contents. There are plenty of LotFP compatible products you could use; Tome of Horrors for Swords & Wizardry being one of the biggest and least 'generic'.

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Bluespruce786 wrote:

Cool, I will add that to my list of stuff to get =-) I want to get Joop Van Ooms, the people of Pembrotonishire, and the Monument that fell from stace and pime.

Get them soon. The 50% off sale at the LotFP store ends tomorrow. smile

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Geoffrey wrote:
Bluespruce786 wrote:

Cool, I will add that to my list of stuff to get =-) I want to get Joop Van Ooms, the people of Pembrotonishire, and the Monument that fell from stace and pime.

Get them soon. The 50% off sale at the LotFP store ends tomorrow. smile

Dooh! you suck! now I have to go buy all that stuff !


Thank you, I will get that order in. =-)

Re: Does LotFP have long term staying power?

Getting back on topic I just wrapped my LotFP campaign this week. It ran for 15 months so I'd say yes the rules definitely had staying power. The characters got to 6th/7th level and I'm keen to return to the campaign down the track as there is plenty of material still to explore.

On the topic of monsters. I made a stack of them up and for the rest I just used the Rules Cyclopaedia. There are so many monster manuals out there I'm sure we all have at least one or two already.

Last edited by Fiasco (2012-12-20 22:54:13)