Topic: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Each adventure will be 32 or 48 A5 pages, as text and format and layout dictates.

Each adventure will have a target of $6,000. The budget for each project covers professional writing + art + editing + layout + printing and is the same for every project (I am assuming 48 pages when budgeting the printing). Remember that fees associated with crowdfunding eat just under 10% of all money taken in. That $6,000 is right about break-even depending on how currency fluctuations turn out at the time I need to pay everyone.

$1.00    The Upsell
IndieGoGo doesn't allow changes to your contribution after you've made it. If you'd like to increase your contribution level, just pay in the difference using this option (on the same project you made your initial purchase, please!).

This is necessary because of the way IndieGoGo's interface works.

$10.00    PDF
PDF Copy of This Adventure

This does includes all the bells and whistles - bookmarking, layers you can turn off for printing, all that fun stuff.

600 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$20.00    Print + PDF
Print Copy Shipped First Class + PDF Copy of This Adventure.

The retail price for each adventure will be 11€-12€, and each adventure will be shipped to you first class. With the dollar vs euro exchange rate constantly fluctuating, you'll come out either a couple dollars ahead or behind with this as you would if you ordered the adventure after its release.

300 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$30.00    Adventure + Extra
Help out the campaign! You get this adventure in Print + PDF plus a separate "What I would do with this" sheet by James Edward Raggi IV.

The "Players Secret Advantage" thing was such a surprise success I'd be really dumb to not offer something similar. Of course this is more of a "I want to support this campaign!" gesture than getting something that's really worth ten extra dollars.

200 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

This is where things get interesting. If you are just interested in one or a few adventures, you choose the above options and that's that. If you want more and are willing to take a bit of a chance, there are the options below that, funding willing, give you more adventures at a discount.

The risk here is that less adventures fund and you paid more than you would have to fund them individually, or that the adventure you put this option on doesn't fund and you get nothing. Strategizing your bundle buys with others is probably the way to go.

$100.00 Grab Bag!
You get this adventure and five other adventures that fund, picked at random, in Print + PDF format.

It has to be random as the possibility of screwing up people's specific requests would be too great. But you'd choose this option on the adventure you most want to fund to help it along.

This option is $20, 16.6%, less than if contributing to six adventures individually.

60 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$150.00 Grab Bag + Extras!
You get this adventure and five other adventures that fund picked at random in Print + PDF form, plus the "What I would do with this" sheets for those adventures.

This option is $30, 16.6%, less than if contributing to six adventures + extras individually.

There are no Gardening Society options for these grab bags because IndieGoGo only allows 12 perk options.

40 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$160.00 Gardening Faithful
Like "The Faithful" below, but ONLY for Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society members. If you're not a member and you buy this option you'll get 8 adventures.

Gardening Society members get a $20 discount here. More than you pay to get in the Society.

If 8 adventures fund, you break even vs the cost of contributing to each individually.

Assuming 16 adventures fund, this is a $160, 50% discount over paying in to each individually. If 18 fund, that's $200, 55.6% off.

38 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$180.00 The Faithful
Forget multiple campaign contributions, choose this one-and-done option, and you'll receive every funded adventure from these campaigns in Print and PDF. See the long description on the left.

This is where it gets interesting. If 9 adventures fund, you've broken even vs the cost of contributing to each individually.

Assuming 16 adventures fund, this is a $140, 43.8% discount off of contributing to each adventure individually. If we do all 18, that's $180, a full 50% off.

34 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$235.00 Gardening Extra
As "The Extra Faithful" below but ONLY for Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society members. If you're not a member and you buy this option you'll be treated as if you bought "The Faithful" and decided to give me a tip.

Gardening Society members get a $35 discount here.

If 8 adventures fund, you break even vs the cost of contributing to each adventure with extras individually.

Assuming 16 adventures fund, this is a $245, 51% discount over paying in to each adventure + extras individually. If 18 fund, that's $305, 56.5% off.

26 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$270.00 The Extra Faithful
As The Faithful, but also included are all the "What I would do with this" notes in a booklet with new cover art.

If 9 adventures fund, you've broken even vs the cost of contributing to each individually.

Assuming 16 adventures fund, this is a $210, 43.8% discount off of contributing to each adventure individually. If we do all 18, that's $270, a full 50% off.

23 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

The following are priced based on the assumptions that 16 adventures will fund. I pretty much have to do that because the cost of top-notch printing and binding for print runs of one or two dozen hardcovers and slipcases are astronomical and if I didn't account for that it's possible each of these Collector options would be financial killers. They are not as currently set up.

The interiors of each book will be identical to the softcovers.

$450.00 Gardening Collectors
Like "The Collecting Faithful" below, but ONLY for Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society members. If you're not a member and you buy this option you'll be considered to have bought The Faithful three times.

Gardening Society members get a $50 discount here.

14 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

$500.00 The Collecting Faithful
As "The Faithful," but the adventures will all be in hardcover, packaged together in a sturdy exclusive slipcase with custom art. Includes the extra "What I would do with this" booklet (not hardcover or slipcased).

12 people would have to sign up at this level to fund an adventure.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Now there will be 17, possibly 18 campaigns running at once. (There is an off-chance that we could add a celebrity 19th but not looking likely at this point; prices for the bundles will not change if this occurs.)

Ambitious as hell but the point is to move LotFP to "the next level." If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and I'll forget this mass crowdfunding thing for good. If it does work and all turns out well, we'll do it again next year.

This is why the final list of participants will be eclectic. People with a reputation for delivering the goods and selling, people with a reputation for using social media and being able to promote themselves and their project, people of different backgrounds and reputations in different gaming scenes to hopefully get their different fanbases participating, none of this is an accident. Oh yeah, plus a couple of lesser-known picks that I will give the opportunity to perform at the level of the big boys.

I will consider this whole thing successful if we can fund 9 adventures this way: enough that people doing the bundles "break even" on the buy-in.

From the end of July to near the end of the year managing all this stuff is going to be my full time job.

Let's do this.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

I'm excited as hell for this, but at the same time, I think I have to curse you.. because now I need set aside $450.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

The gardening extra looks manageable for my budget.
The gardening collectors is really exciting. Will we get a chance at some point to upgrade our contribution?

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Tauther wrote:

Will we get a chance at some point to upgrade our contribution?

That's what the $1 Upsell perk is for, you can enter any amount there, and use that to upgrade your contribution.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Tauther wrote:

The gardening extra looks manageable for my budget.
The gardening collectors is really exciting. Will we get a chance at some point to upgrade our contribution?

That is almost certainly the path I will take through these campaigns. Start at Gardening Extra, Upgrade to collector later.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

I've very excited by this campaign.  Hopefully the diversity of writers and illustrators attracts a broad range of investors rather than just diluting the potential funds amongst so many products that none end up funding.

One pertinent question.  What happens if we have some modules exceed their funding levels and others fall short?  Is there  some mechanism for diverting funds to get others funded as well?   Tricky question I know and I can understand that having several modules over fund is probably a more profitable outcome and hence better for LotFP publishing's long term success.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Fiasco wrote:

One pertinent question.  What happens if we have some modules exceed their funding levels and others fall short?  Is there  some mechanism for diverting funds to get others funded as well?   Tricky question I know and I can understand that having several modules over fund is probably a more profitable outcome and hence better for LotFP publishing's long term success.

There is no such mechanism, unfortunately. In IndieGoGo's system each adventure is going to be a completely separate entity.

It's one reason why I'm not having stretch goals on the adventures - when one funds, I'm hoping people going for a group deal then start putting money into one that hasn't yet funded.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Yeah I get that. It's unfortunate that people getting package deals can't distribute the love a cross the range.

Lots of communications and updates will be key on this one.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Fiasco wrote:

Lots of communications and updates will be key on this one.

I plan on having a thread here where I update how every adventure is doing every day.

I'm thinking there also should be coordination on your guys' part, "let's hit this adventure, then this one, then this one," because 9 adventures getting funded is better than 18 getting half-funded.

I'll have to stay out of that bit though since it would be really bad for for me to say "Fund THIS one before the others!"

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

JimLotFP wrote:
Fiasco wrote:

Lots of communications and updates will be key on this one.

I plan on having a thread here where I update how every adventure is doing every day.

I'm thinking there also should be coordination on your guys' part, "let's hit this adventure, then this one, then this one," because 9 adventures getting funded is better than 18 getting half-funded.

I'll have to stay out of that bit though since it would be really bad for for me to say "Fund THIS one before the others!"


Yeah, I think that is a good idea.  Of course it only works for people who don't care what module they get.  If its a particular module or two you want, there is no point strategically putting funds elsewhere.  Likewise, since some of the mid range options only gets you a random choice, you are pretty much forced to chuck your money into the module you want the most, whether its already funded or not.

I think it would be a big shame if people take some of the higher level funding options but tie it to a module that doesn't fund, and hence all the funding is lost across the board.  Maybe an option where people can cancel a pledge and move it elsewhere if required?   

Please don't take these musings as critical of what you are doing.  I realise that you are heavily constrained by what can be done while going through Indiegogo.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Fiasco wrote:

Yeah, I think that is a good idea.  Of course it only works for people who don't care what module they get.  If its a particular module or two you want, there is no point strategically putting funds elsewhere.  Likewise, since some of the mid range options only gets you a random choice, you are pretty much forced to chuck your money into the module you want the most, whether its already funded or not.

I think it would be a big shame if people take some of the higher level funding options but tie it to a module that doesn't fund, and hence all the funding is lost across the board.  Maybe an option where people can cancel a pledge and move it elsewhere if required?   

Please don't take these musings as critical of what you are doing.  I realise that you are heavily constrained by what can be done while going through Indiegogo.

These are my biggest concerns as well. Along with this question: What happens if I contribute at the $450 level on the campaign of my choosing, but then that campaign fails to achieve full funding? Will there be any way to reclaim a position of participation, or will I be shit outta luck and get nothing?

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

IndieGoGo's interface has no allowances for canceling payments, getting refunds (unless a project doesn't fund, then you of course get the refund), or changing the perk level after you hit that pay button. It is not a great thing, and the very first lines on all the campaign pages will be a warning to this effect.

I agree for all the levels up to and including the Grab Bag, you just plop down on the adventure(s) you want.

Above that though, there's not much that can be done because of the way IndieGoGo's interface works. You either put your money down on the adventure you most want to fund and cross your fingers, or your coordinate with others and concentrate your funding to get one adventure done, then another, etc. until we're all done.

It's a shame Kickstarter is for US people only, because their interface kicks ass from what I've seen of it... but the more professional "brokers" who will set up and run the campaign(s) for foreign residents basically take as much as Kickstarter/Amazon Payments will (so that's 20% total off the top right there), and those who wouldn't take that cut, let's just say I'm not going to trust very many people on this planet to handle what will hopefully be many tens of thousands of dollars on my behalf, and depending on someone to make all the updates on all the campaigns, not to mention read and pass on the daily dashboard info for 18 campaigns over 30 days... crickey, we'll be ready to kill each other.

I have to make do with the tools I have, make the potential "issues" known to everyone up front, and cross fingers that it works out decently.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Hey Jim,

If crowdfunding is going to become an important part of your business model you might want to think about incorporating LotFP in the US so you can use Kickstarter.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

David wrote:

Hey Jim,

If crowdfunding is going to become an important part of your business model you might want to think about incorporating LotFP in the US so you can use Kickstarter.

This is going to be the last one for quite awhile, hopefully ever if it goes well enough to actually get the catalog moving like I hope it will.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

I'm a bit skeptical on the results if you ask "us" to organise ourselves.

My suggestion would be that you create a 19th campaign just for the high pledges, possibly starting from the first Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society members pledge at 160$.
Let's call it the 2012 Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society Charity Fundraising Campaign!

People who are not interested in many campaigns or really interested in one campaign will pledge on the corresponding campaigns.
When the campaigns are over, with the amount of cash of the 19th campaign, you distribute the cash among the campaigns that were not funded and try to maximize the number of "campaigns" you can bring to 6000 USD.
The algorithm should simply be:
you finance the unsuccessful campaigns by their order of popularity (from highest total of pledge to the lowest)
With that system, the choice of the funded campaigns will not be yours but will be the vox populi.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

JimLotFP wrote:
Tauther wrote:

Will we get a chance at some point to upgrade our contribution?

That's what the $1 Upsell perk is for, you can enter any amount there, and use that to upgrade your contribution.

I meant of course after the official end of the campaign... smile

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Tauther wrote:

I'm a bit skeptical on the results if you ask "us" to organise ourselves.

My suggestion would be that you create a 19th campaign just for the high pledges, possibly starting from the first Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society members pledge at 160$.
Let's call it the 2012 Pembrooktonshire Gardening Society Charity Fundraising Campaign!

People who are not interested in many campaigns or really interested in one campaign will pledge on the corresponding campaigns.
When the campaigns are over, with the amount of cash of the 19th campaign, you distribute the cash among the campaigns that were not funded and try to maximize the number of "campaigns" you can bring to 6000 USD.
The algorithm should simply be:
you finance the unsuccessful campaigns by their order of popularity (from highest total of pledge to the lowest)
With that system, the choice of the funded campaigns will not be yours but will be the vox populi.

Every campaign that does not fund has all money refunded so we'd be starting at $0, not making up the difference. And if a campaign was funded this way, then all the people who had previously pledged would still be left out.

I really think the campaigns that do get funded will be because of the bundle pledges, so trying to separate those out will be counterproductive to getting anything funded.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

JimLotFP wrote:

I really think the campaigns that do get funded will be because of the bundle pledges, so trying to separate those out will be counterproductive to getting anything funded.

Yes, but due to the importance of the pledge, most of the highest pledges will be done when the "gain" seems probable. So during the last days or when at least it seems that "enough" campaigns will be funded.

Another option is that you finish the bunble pledge campaign before the end of the other campaigns, and then reuse the amount of cash you get to fund as many campaigns as can during the last day of the campaigns.
Of course, indiegogo will take twice their fee on these pledges...

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

I was thinking about this, and I had an idea on how the campaign could be organized differently. I'm not entirely sure it can be done with Indiegogo, nor do I have any idea how open you are to suggestions at this point (just over two weeks till campaign launch), but I'll post it anyways.

Rather than 18 individual campaigns, with the standard perk level layouts as detailed here, what about making a single campaign, and have each adventure be one "perk" (you simply enter how much you want to contribute when you choose one)? You could make the campaign have a target of 6k, so that as long as one adventure gets funded, no campaigns fail and result in a loss of funding. Then each contributor could simply choose which adventure they want to fund by choosing that "perk", and entering the amount of money they want to contribute. The actual contribution perk levels could be explained in the campaign description, and the sum of all your contributions would determine your perk level.

This way, at the end of the month, if there's say 6 adventures that had achieved funding, and 6 more that were only partially funded, you combine the funds from the partial successes as well as any overflow to top up the partial funders, in order of popularity.

Last edited by Yuritau (2012-06-11 22:13:02)

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Yuritau wrote:

Rather than 18 individual campaigns, with the standard perk level layouts as detailed here, what about making a single campaign, and have each adventure be one "perk" (you simply enter how much you want to contribute when you choose one)?

The format of this campaign was based on learning from the shortcomings of the last one.

The "waiting in line" effect is kind of awful. "Don't give a shit about a Vince Baker adventure, I'm going to wait for the Dave Brockie adventure to be up for funding before I get involved," for example. The people who would care about the Maliszewski and Pohjola adventures are probably going to be very different people.

I want people to be able to buy into their preferred adventures immediately and not necessarily have to care how the others are doing. And having every adventure's funding (and therefore payday for the creators, since I can truthfully and literally say that every writer that gets funded will get paid like a rock star) independent of all the others gives the writers involved more of an incentive to publicize this from the beginning.

Yuritau wrote:

You could make the campaign have a target of 6k, so that as long as one adventure gets funded, no campaigns fail and result in a loss of funding.

I do not understand what you are saying here. If I make everything one campaign, and only get $6000 in funding, that's 1 adventure that gets made and 17 that don't. Lots of unhappy people who put in for a particular adventure and get neither that adventure nor their money back.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

JimLotFP wrote:

And having every adventure's funding (and therefore payday for the creators, since I can truthfully and literally say that every writer that gets funded will get paid like a rock star) independent of all the others gives the writers involved more of an incentive to publicize this from the beginning.

That actually makes a lot of sense, now that you point it out.

JimLotFP wrote:

I do not understand what you are saying here. If I make everything one campaign, and only get $6000 in funding, that's 1 adventure that gets made and 17 that don't. Lots of unhappy people who put in for a particular adventure and get neither that adventure nor their money back.

My logic there sort of assumes that most people contributing would rather get something, rather than nothing, if their one chosen adventure fails to meet funding, but their contribution is applied to a different adventure. That would be my outlook, but I suppose that might not be universal, hehe.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

A few other questions, Jim.
Is it possible to refuse the money in case of a flexible funding? or are you obliged to take the money and pay the fee?
Is it possible to change a funding from fixed to flexible once the campaign as been launched?

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

Tauther wrote:

A few other questions, Jim.
Is it possible to refuse the money in case of a flexible funding? or are you obliged to take the money and pay the fee?

By deciding to use flexible funding, you're saying you want the money regardless of hitting the goal.

I much much much prefer how they pay for flexible funding campaigns - direct bank transfer - than with the fixed funding. Fixed funding is Paypal only, no choice, paid out in individual contributions... when the hardcover thing hit its funding goal, I got like 100+ individual Paypal payments from IndieGoGo in a great mass, and then individual payments every time someone contributed after that. It's stupid, not to mention costing ,35€ in the basic Paypal fee for every payment.

Why don't they wait until the end and do just one Paypal payment? (Why don't they use the Mass Pay option? RPGNow does...) Hell, why don't they give the option of doing a bank transfer at the end for the amount gathered SINCE THEY ALREADY DO THAT FOR THE OTHER FUNDING TYPE?

(Well, they only do that for credit card contributions... Paypal payments are passed along immediately in flexible funding. I bet there is some issue with doing credit card refunds, which might be why they only offer than payment option on flexible funding and why Kickstarter only takes payment after a project ends.)

Dunno. The customer service drones at the end of their contact form responded with some canned "thank you for your feedback..." shit.

Frustrating, but not much that can be done. Kickstarter's not an option, and without the trust given by an established crowdfunding site (not to mention the interface) I really doubt there would be significant "cold" contributions... just setting up a page on my webstore with "buy" buttons won't work.

Tauther wrote:

Is it possible to change a funding from fixed to flexible once the campaign as been launched?

No.

Re: Proposed Pricing Schedule

James raises a good point on authors hopefully working hard to publicize their modules. That is the best hope for this venture. My biggest concern for the higher funding levels is that someone tips in say $250 and only 3 modules fund. The solution is naturally to hold off on the higher contribution rates until its a sure thing but that means not much happens with everyone waiting to committ. Ideally lots of the modules attract a broader audience who may only want 1 or two efforts so there is no incentive for them to hold off until the last minute.

One question. If someone funds say 3 individual campaigns, is there a mechanism for them to upgrade to one of the packages?