Topic: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

So the project is funded. I'll be going through the book with a fine-tooth comb plus there will be an outside editor.

But you guys have been using it. What needs cleaning up?

http://www.lotfp.com/RPG/discussion/top … on-errata/

I'm already aware of those things. The Summon spell will get a new coat of paint.

What else?

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Regarding the saving throws, is there a specific reason as to why so many of them advance in such big chunks every few levels instead of a more granular progression?

For example, the cleric has a save vs. magic of 15 for levels 1-4, and then when he hits 5th level, bam, it lowers down to 12, meaning that his chances of making that save increase by 50%. Why doesn't the save improve to, say, 14 at level 2, 13 at level 3, and then 12 at level 5?

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

I would like for the text go a bit more into detail about combat & stat modifiers. As it is now, I think it’s rather intuitive for most players/readers/gm’s how this works, but if new players get a hold of the book in the future, I think it would be cool if it explained a bit more. Especially as this will get a life without the tutorial book.

For example, in the chapter about combat, the basic ‘making an attack’ is described like this:

“The referee will inform the player what the opponent’s AC is, and the player roll a D20 to determine if his character hits. If the result is equal to or greater than the defender’s AC (including all modifiers), the character inflicts the weapons damage” (page 57)

Including all modifiers? These modifiers are not mentioned or described in the combat section at all. As far as I can tell, they are only mentioned much earlier in the description of stats (on page 2-3) and here only described as:

“Strength modifiers affect the character’s ability to hit in mêlée combat” (affects how?)

And on page 20 (“Record Attack Bonus”), where the different classes basic attack bonus is described and explained a little, there’s no mention of the strength/dexterity modifiers to combat rolls.

So if the combat section just had a box/table with explanation about how you add these up, like the useful ones on the character sheets (the special moves for dwarfs, elves & fighters) or on the back of the book, I think it would be helpful and make the rules easier to grasp.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

The bonuses from statistics in general have left me somewhat confused sometimes - not a big issue, I just make a general ruling and stick with it, but it would be nice to have it stated with just a little bit more depth in the book.

For one, how Intelligence affects saving throws feels a bit murky - as far as I've deduced the bonus applies to all magic-related saving throws, but can also act as a negative modifier for spells when cast by a Magic User with high Intelligence. Is this as intended?

Also, a clear and simple chart to follow when creating a character would be great. I sometimes game with newcomers and novice players, and we all know that they tend to have to make new characters now and then. smile If there was a clear and simple flowchart for them to follow for creating a new character, it would be much easier to just hand them the book and let them do it themselves while the rest of us play on.

One final thing; it feels like the book sometimes assumes a certain basic knowledge of D&D. Some examples are a general description of items - yes, the 10' pole is of course a legendary and most useful item, and it's uses can be deduced during gameplay, but a few tips on how it can be used and also for the GM regarding how to judge this would be nice. Does it always detect pit traps ahead?

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Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Storapan wrote:

Does it always detect pit traps ahead?

Heck no! It's perfectly reasonable to make traps (pit or otherwise) that are only triggered when a certain minimum weight is applied. I'm not sure if I could apply enough leverage to push the far end of a 10' pole down with 50 lbs of force (and I consider myself reasonably strong), for example, but I'm quite certain that I wouldn't be going to that effort every other step down a hallway!

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Yuritau wrote:

I'm quite certain that I wouldn't be going to that effort every other step down a hallway!

Then you will die!

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

celebrityomnipath wrote:
Yuritau wrote:

I'm quite certain that I wouldn't be going to that effort every other step down a hallway!

Then you will die!

Those are not the only two options!

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

In the equipment lists, there doesn't seem to be any reason why some prices over 1 gp are listed in gp and others in sp. I think the lists would be easier to read if they were all in sp, or at least if all the prices over some amount were listed in gp.

Maybe you could even use the typography to accent prices not in sp (like cp is italicized, gp in small caps) or something?

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

In the description of the Elf Class is does not say that they are immune to the spells Charm and Sleep. It only mentions it in the spell descriptions. I think it would make sense to include this information in the class description.

Last edited by David (2012-06-06 16:39:29)

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Modifiers can be found on the character sheet (so that's why I have never had problem with that); however, a list of spells that work differently on Elves and a revised price list would be nice.

As for the 10' pole, in our games it works only 2 in 6 (because of the weight-thing mentioned above).

Also, the improvement of saving throws is such because they are derived from B/X D&D. I personally have no problem with that except that it would be much easier if they always improved by two.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Currently the only place that actually tells you the effect of being surprised is the character sheet explanation at the back of the book. I think it would a good idea to include that in the Surprise section of the rules.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

I don't find the geometric shapes for Cleric and Mage spells on the character sheet (listed as sections L&M in the book) to be useful at all. I'd much prefer something like this:

http://i.imgur.com/fR2XL.png

Where you'd just fill in the pips for however many spells you can memorize by level. It continues the visual theme used elsewhere on the form and is useful for both Clerics and Mages.

Last edited by Glipkerio (2012-06-12 04:21:27)

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

IMHO, I prefer the way it is currently. That space is too small to try and cram spells/day charts in there, so having a highest spell level indication is fine by me. If you want a better way to record spell info, you can have a look at this spell record sheet I made and see if you like it.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Recommend this be made clear in the Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling class descriptions:

JimLotFP wrote:

Dwarfs and elves get the expanded combat options (Press, Defensive, the greater Parry) but do not increase their attack bonus. Halfling abilities do not increase as they level - their big gain in addition to hit points is their ridiculous saving throw progression.

It may be just me (and probably is), but until very recently I thought Elves & Dwarves got the attack bonus of a fighter.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

And so I don't forget:

Potion-making lab expenses need to be actual amounts rather than a percentage so larger labs aren't penalized.

How Read Magic works if you have no spellbook and the spell isn't prepared.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

I don't think it's explicitly stated in the Magic User and Elf sections that they start with a spellbook and don't have purchase one from the equipment list.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Ed Dove wrote:
JimLotFP wrote:

How Read Magic works if you have no spellbook and the spell isn't prepared.

If you don't want to change Read Magic from being a spell to being a M-U/Elf innate ability, then making it the one spell that any M-U/Elf can read any version of without Read Magic would be sufficient to bootstrap magic use.  That way, all a M-U/Elf with no spellbook or prepared Read Magic would need to do to get started would be to acquire a copy of Read Magic.

My favorite solution is just making it so that MU/Elves can prepare Read Magic without a spellbook. That makes the most sense to me, as early magic training would have to hammer that spell into the students head permanently, or they could literally never learn any spells. You can only prepare spells that are in your spellbook, and the only two ways to add spells to your spellbook both require Read Magic.

I will concede that there is one way around this situation, rules as written, but it's kind of a dick move, imho: make the MU/Elf buy a new blank spellbook then research the Read Magic spell in order to add it to his new spellbook. I might consider doing this if the player in question lost his spellbook in some exceptionally stupid way, but most of the time I wouldnt.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Ed Dove wrote:

On page 25, in the Missile Weapons table, are Crossbows supposed to have Medium & Long ranges that are LESS than those of Bows?

I would say yes. It would be more difficult, imho, to be accurate on a high arcing shot (the only way to get longer range is making it a higher arc) with a crossbow than a bow. If for no other reason, you could use the lower extension of the bow as a vertical marker of roughly what line the arrow will land on.

Anyways, if you wanted proper realism for bows and crossbows, maximum effective range would be ~300 feet for both, and any shots beyond that would do almost no damage.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

On page 46 under the Ship to Ship Combat header the last sentence states, "Some ships may be equipped with these weapons, as indicated previously."

However, I could not find the section that indicates which ships are equipped with weapons.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

The entire Maritime Adventures section is getting redone. The one place where there are going to be actual changes rather than corrections/clarifications.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

p 48, 3rd paragraph just ends with a colon and never provides the types of retainer stats.  That whole sentence could probably be removed.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

Beedo wrote:

p 48, 3rd paragraph just ends with a colon and never provides the types of retainer stats.  That whole sentence could probably be removed.

Or edit it to direct the reader to the stats table on the previous page.

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

These suggestions all seem terrific. However, I'm confused (my fault) after listening to your recent appearance on the Jennisodes. It sounded like you were saying tha there was NO WAY to get a core rulebook copy without investing in the new kickstarter or buying another boxed set.

I would guess that there are a lot of people like me who don't need a boxed set or an adventure, just a nifty core rulebook. Is there ANY way you could release a Grindhouse v2 in Hardcover, Softcover, or PDF just for us? Thanks!

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

the PDFs are always available in the Store, or there's a No Art version available in the Releases section. (Link)

Re: Rules & Magic: What Needs Cleaning Up?

furashg wrote:

These suggestions all seem terrific. However, I'm confused (my fault) after listening to your recent appearance on the Jennisodes. It sounded like you were saying tha there was NO WAY to get a core rulebook copy without investing in the new kickstarter or buying another boxed set.

I would guess that there are a lot of people like me who don't need a boxed set or an adventure, just a nifty core rulebook. Is there ANY way you could release a Grindhouse v2 in Hardcover, Softcover, or PDF just for us? Thanks!

The Grindhouse PDFs, including the art-free PDF, will have the new layout and updates when it's completed. (will be released the same time as the Hite adventure)